Author's Note: It has been my pleasure and honor to serve the ITA as Associate Jazz Editor for the last twenty years. My thanks go to all the authors, interviewees, transcribers, photographers, art directors, editors, and board members who have made this possible. Look for me in my native New Orleans and beyond!

            I’ve had the pleasure of hosting Ed Neumeister in his roles as performer, composer, and educator. His consistency in those roles is defied only in the positive sense: the apex of his abilities to express himself musically seems endlessly rising beyond description. I had the pleasure of dialoging with Ed over the span of a year and a half regarding his past, present, and future.

“Ed Neumeister is the Picasso of music. Testing the grounds of music and in the process creating his own unique style and sound that should not be missed. He is a treasure of the music world.” —Holli Harms, <thefrontrowcenter.com>, April 5, 2022.

photo credit: courtesy Ed Neumeister

Career Influences

Antonio García: Your musical upbringing and development are well-documented for our readers on your web site, <www.edneumeister.com>. But there are a few areas in particular on which I’d like to focus. Your earliest overseas experience was your “counter-culture sojourn in Amsterdam,” as you’ve described it. I imagine that provided you perspectives your peers back home in the U.S. might not have encountered. How did this international eye affect your music-making, then and thereafter?

Ed Neumeister: Well, it was in Amsterdam that I was able to take a deep dive into jazz and improvisation. I lived in a place where I could practice all night, and I did often practice until the sun came up. This experience also gave me a European perspective that I wouldn’t have gotten otherwise. I was able to survive playing creative music. That was a very important “learning and growing” experience for me.

AG: You shared a couple of photos from the late 1970s of a band you played in called Reconstruction, with Jerry Garcia of the Grateful Dead. So what was Jerry’s charge to the band, if any; who else was in it; and what if anything did you take away from that experience?

EN: Deep!! This was a great band, which also included Ron Stallings on sax and vocals, John Kahn on bass, and Gaylord Birch on drums. I’m the only surviving member, unfortunately. Jerry was the draw, but we were all equal members as far as repertoire and money were concerned. We played Jerry’s tunes, my tunes, Merl Saunders’ tunes, some tunes by McCoy Tyner and Horace Silver, some free stuff. That’s how I saved to move to New York in 1980. All the gigs were recorded and are floating around the web.

The band Reconstruction, 1979: Merl Saunders (keyboards), Ed Neumeister (trombone), Ron Stallings (tenor sax), Gaylord Birch (drums), John Kahn (bass), and Jerry Garcia (guitar). photo credit: courtesy Ed Neumeister

AG: Playing in both the Ellington and Mel Lewis Orchestras (among many other superb ensembles) is a bill not many can claim. Could you briefly summarize some of the best lessons you learned as a member of those ensembles?

EN: Playing in the trombone sections of both of these bands was heaven and inspirational. The Mel Lewis Jazz Orchestra (formerly Thad Jones/Mel Lewis) was coming from the Count Basie tradition, especially as it applies to “swing”: trumpeter Thad Jones had been in the Basie Band and had written some pieces for Basie. But Basie gave some of them back to Thad, saying something to the effect that they were too modern for the Basie Band but suggesting that Thad start his own band—which he then did with Mel. Those rejected pieces were the first charts that the Thad and Mel band played.

So as a budding composer/arranger myself, I had the unique opportunity to absorb the music of Thad and of Bob Brookmeyer, who was Music Director when I joined with Mel—while I was simultaneously playing the music of Ellington and Strayhorn in the Ellington Band. I was also encouraged to compose and arrange for Mel and also did several reconstructions of Ellington/Strayhorn music so that it could be performed. On-the-job training!

One of the more interesting aspects of the differences of the two bands was the sense of swing. On slower-swing tempos the Ellington band tended to play more of a 12/8 feel, where with Thad’s music, coming from the Basie tradition, the eighth notes were more straight, more of a bebop style, but still really swinging.

AG: As a composer, you write classically influenced works alongside your jazz output. And you have orchestrated for such films as Inception, The Dark Knight Rises, and Sherlock Holmes. What feels the same and what’s different in your creative process as you birth these varying genres of music?

The Mel Lewis Orchestra recording the album 20 Years at the Village Vanguard circa 1985, with Ed on trombone fourth from the left. photo credit: courtesy Ed Neumeister

EN: My creative process when composing, arranging, or orchestrating has been evolving, of course, but always related to my past experiences. Orchestrating for film composers is a “job” and depends on the parameters of the particular project. With orchestrating I learned a lot about the technology: score- and part-formatting and layout—and about the film-music business in general. But for me composing for jazz or classical situations is more or less the same process of building the piece up from the foundation. I often use classical composition devices in my jazz compositions.

John Dankworth (clarinet), Ed Neumeister (trombone), Seward McCain (bass), Cleo Laine (vocals), and Jim Zimmerman (drums), with Larry Dunlap (piano, not shown) at Dimitriou’s Jazz Alley circa 2009. photo credit: courtesy Ed Neumeister

Vocal Partners

AG: Your collaborations with vocalist Jay Clayton span many projects. Do you find that ongoing projects with her have prompted any traceable evolutions in your trombone-playing—or—vice-versa, in her singing?

EN: First, I love playing with singers. And I’ve played with some of the best: Sinatra, Ella, Sarah Vaughan, Nancy Wilson, and on and on when I played first trombone in the Circle Star Theater in San Francisco. More recently, the past 20 years, I’ve had the great fortune to play in small groups with some amazing singers; and Jay Clayton certainly is one of them.

What I love about playing with Jay is that we can go stylistically anywhere, from mainstream Great American Songbook to free and “avant-garde” (whatever that means). I think my evolutions are directly related to the fact that I listen to whomever I’m playing with. From the very first note, Jay and I felt like we’d been playing together for years. One thing we’ve learned from each other is to trust.

The other singer that I had the great fortune to perform with on a regular basis was the great British vocalist Cleo Laine and her husband, John Dankworth. He wrote the quintet arrangements (sometimes a sextet, with Cleo as the third horn). It’s so much fun to interact in small-group situations with singers. These were “jazz-blowing” gigs; so I really had the opportunity to stretch out and play “me.” One highlight for me with Cleo and John was after a concert in San Francisco: Rita Moreno came up to me said that I “knocked her socks off.” Fairly recently I played with Dena DeRose at Birdland as the only horn: no rehearsal, just lead-sheets—listen and interact. I love to create accompaniment for the singers.

 

Talking Trombone

Curtis Fuller (trombone, left) with Ed in the Lionel Hampton Big Band, circa 1980. photo credit: courtesy Ed Neumeister

AG: You’ve re-anchored in New York City in recent years and have been teaching at the New School, New York University, City College of New York, and nearby William Paterson University. What are you finding that trombone (or jazz) students need more or less of than when you were in school—or do things seem the same as then?

EN: Well, my training as a trombonist was classical. I was fortunate to have two great teachers: Bob Szabo at San José State University and then Mitchell Ross, with whom I studied privately. Both were legendary teachers in the San Francisco area. I certainly got the basics from them; but more importantly, I learned to get deeper into the music, beyond the notes and rhythms. My jazz education is all from the streets, self-taught. I never had a jazz lesson on the trombone.

So with that said, I don’t think that the issues have changed much over the past 40 years or more. In other words, all students have their issues. I think it’s the teacher’s job to recognize the issues that need attention and steer the student toward ways to strengthen the areas that are weaker and bring the musicality to a higher level. Regardless, I approach every student with the question: what does s/he need? I bring my classical training and my jazz experience and then share my experience and knowledge in the ways I believe can best enhance their development.

AG: My longest-owned instrument is the plunger for my trombone: it’s the one mute I must have with me when I travel. Maybe that’s because I’m from New Orleans. As someone who skillfully uses a variety of mutes as available textures, are there specific issues or considerations you’ve found with playing muted that you find are not often addressed in younger players’ development?

EN: I think the biggest mistake that a lot of players make is that they think it’s not necessary to practice with and learn the mutes. They think you can just put one in the horn when a mute is called for. For one thing, the mute needs to fit the horn; so it’s probably necessary to file the corks down, tight but not too tight, so that the lower register speaks. Every mute has a specific color; so when I was freelancing, I often had in my mute bag two different cup mutes, two straight mutes, one or two bucket mutes, a harmon mute, and a couple of different pixie mutes—plus the plunger, of course.

            People often ask me how I developed my plunger technique. The answer is simple: I practiced, experimented, and explored the plunger mute for many, many hours, days, weeks, and more. In hardware stores I bought every plunger that I could find so that I could find the perfect plunger for me. I’ve been playing the same hardware-store plunger for about 35 years.

AG: I’ve had my same hardware-store plunger for 50 years!

EN: I use a Humes & Berg Stoneline trumpet straight mute as my “pixie” mute. I also bought many trumpet straight mutes in order to find the one that works with my horn and that “speaks” to me.

On the Record

The NeuHat Ensemble, circa 1983: Ed Neumeister (trombone), Kenny Werner (piano), Ryan Kisor (trumpet), Dennis Irwin (bass), Dick Oatts (soprano sax), Jamey Haddad (drums), Billy Drewes (tenor sax), and Don Byron (bass clarinet). photo credit: courtesy Ed Neumeister

AG: You followed your NeuHat Ensemble album Wake Up Call of 2017 with your solo trombone album One and Only in 2019—quite the contrast of ensemble-size. You mention that a major inspiration for your solo album was the output of solo albums from Albert Mangelsdorff. I share your admiration for those recordings. Did you ever get to meet or collaborate with him?

EN: Yes, I met Albert a few times. We played together a couple times with the Frankfurt Radio Jazz Ensemble. I was the guest artist; so I was playing all the solos. I actually apologized to him about that. He was very cool. Great guy. Huge influence on me. He came to the studio early every day and did an extensive warm-up. We also played on the same concert for the opening of the Porgy & Bess Jazz Club in Vienna in 2001. We both played duo with piano players; mine was Fritz Pauer. Albert had a broken arm at the time; but fortunately—if there is such a thing—it was the left one!

AG: Your album What Have I Done? features pianist Gary Versace, bassist Drew Gress, and drummer Tom Rainey. I have to say here that not only is the performance superb but also that the production quality is gorgeous: each instrument sounds wonderful. You mention that “There’s often what looks like chord changes; but I don’t think of them as chord changes anymore: I call them harmonic references.” Tell me more.

EN: Yes, I am very proud of this album. Thanks for noticing the production. I mixed and mastered the recording myself in Logic; so I had the time to work on the fine details.

Regarding “harmonic references,” I think some people often get hung up on chord changes as if there is only one group of possible notes to play on any particular chord change. I like to use the following metaphor. When students see a chord change, they think: “what scale is that?” The master musicians think: “what shall I play over this harmonic situation?” There are many possibilities to consider and learn about and explore. Especially, with some of my compositions, the source material for the improvisation doesn’t always have “normal” chords; so the harmonic reference is just pointing in the direction of the harmonic situation of the moment so as to give the improviser—and the collaborating musicians—a reference.

AG: I enjoyed your six “PickledGinger” episodes—under-30-second musical commentaries between some of the longer selections on the album. You noted that originally these were recorded as one free improvisation, then split up to serve as interludes.

Improvisors spend their lives selecting and editing in real time the most impactful portions of the music they hear in their heads and are surrounded by. When you recorded the other, longer works on the album, did you capture a complete take heard as each piece; or did you find that multiple takes were needed for seaming together the vision you’d had prior?

EN: The longer composed pieces were conceived as complete works, which included some consultation with the players regarding editing. But the free pieces didn’t have any edits or inserts.

Whenever I go into the studio with a small group, I always record a few “free” pieces. Each piece has a little direction from me, but really minimal, such as “Roughly 3 Minutes Bass Starts”—something like that. On this session, we did three free pieces, all complete takes. With players of this caliber and sensitivity, there is never anything to edit or “fix.”

The idea to put the “PickledGinger” pieces in between came later, and this one piece broke up perfectly for that.

AG: What a great way to loosen everyone up in what otherwise can sometimes be a more stiff environment—record some free pieces! Had you adopted this approach some years ago for that reason, or was it simply for your love of playing free?

EN: I’ve been incorporating “free” playing into my sets and recordings since forever. I like to use free interludes between pieces, as on the trio recording The Mohican And The Great Spirit and the more recent What Have I Done? My goal is to always be free, regardless of the form or situation.

The Ed Neumeister Quartet, 2003: Fritz Pauer (piano), Ed, Drew Gress (bass), John Hollenbeck (drums). photo credit: courtesy Ed Neumeister

AG: In February you and guitarist Karl Ratzer released a duo video-album, Castles Made of Sound. I was checking out the album tracks and the released video tracks and noted that they were sonically identical.

EN: We recorded everything at once in a beautiful and acoustically wonderful setting, Castle Tentschach in Carinthia, Austria. I’ve known Karl for many years; in the past he performed with Chet Baker and Joe Chambers, among others.

AG: It looks like you recorded the whole album sitting on a patio under a lovely colonnade. And then in March your quartet with Neal Kirkwood (piano), Drew Gress (bass), and Tom Rainey (drums) released the limited edition, direct-to-vinyl recording One of a Kind. The album spans ten short, commissioned works by you that are only released to the commissioning individual?

EN: That’s right: we offered people the opportunity to commission and even specify what kind of music they’d want in a three- to five-minute piece. For instance, someone could request “Quarter Note = 70, Graphic Notation, 16th-Note Pulse” or “Quarter = 135, Walking Shuffle with BackBeat à la ‘Don’t Get Sassy’ by Thad Jones, as an 8-bar Blues with Bridge.” Then the quartet recorded the works.

But an even more unique element is that each commissioner received only his/her own tune of the ten: it’s truly one of a kind. So in actuality we released ten singles—one copy each—rather than duplicate albums of ten compositions! That’s unusual; and the direct-to-vinyl format really captures music in its truest form, live, in real-time.

AG: As if early 2023 wasn’t already packed, you then in March also released another quartet album, Explorations, with a variety of musicians.

EN: This is a collection of freely improvised pieces that I’ve recorded over the years. One quartet on the album, recorded 2001-2002, includes the great Austrian pianist I mentioned earlier: Fritz Pauer, who passed away in 2012. “Deep” doesn’t even begin to describe this guy. John Hollenbeck plays drums and percussion on those tracks, joining bassist Drew Gress. Drew then collaborates with Gary Versace (piano) and Tom Rainey (drums) on the tracks recorded in 2021. We actually recorded several of the tracks for the Explorations album in between takes during the previous What Have I Done? album’s recording session.

Each of these musicians can literally play anything. They can read and creatively interpret complex notated music at the same time; they can play open improvisations as if it were worked out in advance—and everything in between. I am honored and humbled to be associated with them.

Composer or Trombonist?

Conducting the NeuHat Ensemble. photo credit: courtesy Ed Neumeister

AG: You’ve said that around 1987 you “morphed from the trombonist who composes into a composer whose instrument is the trombone.” Let’s use the track “Ridgewood” from the album What Have I Done? as a point of focus on your writing. [Author's web note: Choose Track 7 from the track listings; then click within the audio waves at the top of the page to arrive at your chosen timing within the track.] It’s full of meter changes: 9/8, 17/16, 5/8, and 11/16, as a sample. You’ve suggested that these meters are more a result of the unique rhythms you were hearing as you composed. But it begs the questions: in retrospect, how did you develop your rhythmic and metric vocabulary—and how might you lead your own students in the pursuit of their own expansion of such expressive skills?

EN: My primary inspiration is Mother Nature, and I realized that nature is not symmetrical. So that’s my guide. When working in mixed meters, it’s usually the phrasing-flow that comes first. So I create a meter, time-signature template to work from. In an odd-meter signature, it’s always the last beat in the bar that is manipulated so as to shift from what would have been an even-meter signature.

AG: Tell me more: do you sketch out a meter-map, then add rhythms, then melodic pitches to them? Or....?

EN: Yes, that’s right. We can look at some sketches of “Ridgewood” and the final result so that you can see some evolution of thought. The Journal readers can then check out the quartet recording so as to hear what they see.

            Let’s look at Example 1. This is the initial sketch I drew during a two-day period. You can see that I outlined my source material, thinking of the projected (a) meter of the tune (though I see I’d initially mislabeled the 11/16 bars as 11/8), the potential (b) harmony, (c) linear scales derived from the harmony, and (d) vertical voicings. The elements of this sketch flow directly into my construction of the piece.

AG: I’ve added some rehearsal letters in red to this sketch and another that then correspond to the outcomes in the final quartet score, plus some minute/second timings that match the source-recording readers can follow if they wish.

EN: Excellent. I’d constructed Example 2 a dozen days after the initial Example 1 sketch, with the full quartet scores yet later (that you’ve excerpted from in Examples 3 and 4). Comparing, we can see the following:

·      The second line of Example 1, now marked as letter B, appears with a bass line, melody, and harmony as letter B in the handwritten Example 2 and finalized Example 3.

·      The fourth line, second measure of Example 1, now marked as letter C, appears fleshed-out as letter C in the handwritten Example 2 and finalized Example 3.

·      The circular matrix of chord symbols at the lower-middle-left of Example 1, marked as “(E),” provides harmonic references (rather than chord progressions), which from the top, clockwise, each represent the movement of an ascending seventh (major or dominant) from the chord preceding it. I call the resulting chords the “upper structures of the upper structures” of the preceding chords—and then the “upper structures of the upper structures of the upper structures.”

o   Bbmaj7 happens to be the tonic of this particular matrix. So if I want to play in the upper structures of Bbmaj7, I use its seventh degree, A, as a connector, which yields the Am7 to the right of Bbmaj7. I think of all the major chords as either Ionian or Lydian mode and most of the minor chords as Dorian (though whether eventually with a flat sixth or natural fifth or major seventh is all up for grabs). So Am7 provides me the upper structures of Bbmaj7.

o   If I then want the upper structures of the upper structures of Bbmaj7, then I use Am7’s seventh degree, G, as a connector, which yields the Gmaj7 to the right of Am7. So Gmaj7 provides me the upper structures of the upper structures of Bbmaj7. And so on, creating harmonic references that are increasingly distant from and more dissonant with the source Bbmaj7 but nonetheless related.

o   Many of those chords then appear in my chosen order at what is marked as letter E at the bottom left of Example 1, adding my metric choices. Those chords and meters in turn match those of the finalized quartet’s Example 4 at letter E, with the selection of harmonic references continuing through letters F and G.

·      Referring back to the circular matrix of chord symbols at the lower-middle-left of Example 1, marked as “(E),” many of those chords also appear in my chosen order at Example 4’s letter G. The unused Eb/D#m7 begins letter H, which again includes four more of these chords in my chosen order before letter I (not shown) arrives with a new chord (Abo7).

AG: And from this matrix you also created a tone-row of sorts shown at the upper right of Example 1, in the Scalar area. I note that the second line is the mirror-order of the first line, at least by generic letter-name of the note if not in chromatic inflection.

EN: That’s correct. So let’s draw circles around the chords in the matrix at the lower left, then an arrow to the resulting scale-portion at upper right. And then draw squares around the other matrix-chords used to form the rest of this scale at the upper right. In the resulting scales I used all the tones but E.

Each of the two scales also creates its own chord quality: Bbm(maj7, #5) for the top line and Bo(maj7, b6) for the second line.

AG: Let’s look once more at Example 1, this time at the right side, second grand staff, where I’ve marked as m. 101. There is a sequence of seven chord symbols and their analysis. I notice that their bass tones match the Scalar source material at the top right of your sketch. And then the last chord-roots on your sketch seem to be derived from the bass-clef scale near the top-right of your sketch, albeit in reverse order. Tell me about these chord symbols.

Performing with drummer Matt Wilson. photo credit: Jeff Dunn

EN: Compare that to Example 5 in the quartet score, where you’ll see that mm. 101-108 include these chords; and mm. 113-114 (letter M) have accelerated the harmonic rhythm so much that they include varieties of all these chords within a much shorter time period.

            I didn’t create these chords with theory in mind; I created the sounds and then had to look back to re-examine them and say, “What did I just do here?”

AG: Understood. As composers, we sometimes have to analyze our own writing just so we’re then able to give our collaborating ensemble members enough identifying information so that they might then expressively navigate these sounds that we’d created without a specific eye towards theory at the time of composition.

EN: Right. So to summarize: the harmonic references I provide aren’t chord progressions in the traditional sense of “functional harmony”; but they are tonally related and at times even diatonically related. So by choosing them as the chords under the solo section, I’m providing a landscape deeply related to my ideas. And the “compers” are not improvising: they’re playing the specific music that I’ve provided them.

            Also, while it’s true that at the beginning-sketch stage of composing I explore options that rather strictly adhere to the concepts I’ve begun to identify for that piece, that doesn’t always remain the case as my composing that piece proceeds. As I refine the composition, I tend to leave any rigidity behind. I follow my ear, my sensibilities as a musician. I don’t re-assess my writing to ask, “Wait, is that passage allowable under my rules?” I write music. By that point my “rules” have already served their purpose as a uniting force within the piece.

AG: I always enjoy the opportunity to view someone’s sketches leading to a final result: it really provides a window into the mind of a composer and the process involved. And when an improvisor such as yourself is also a deep composer, such sketches also give a glimpse as to how expansively you think as a soloist in any situation: you see so many possibilities beyond simply developing themes and “making the changes.” So thanks for sharing these samples with our readers.

EN: You’re welcome! Yes, whether I’m composing or playing, I’m mostly thinking polytonal.

Onward

AG: So what’s ahead on the docket for Ed Neumeister? You seem always moving forward on multiple projects.

EN: I just keep doing what I do. I formed a new jazz orchestra in New York called Assembláge Jazz Orchestra. As I told The New York City Jazz Record, “in these days, more than ever, we need to come together as a humanity. Music can be the metaphor for life when people from different backgrounds and sensibilities come together to act as one voice with each of the individual voices contributing their own musical personality into the common goal of the music of the moment, whether in an improvisatory or notated context.” We debuted the band in April 2022 at Birdland.

I’m continuing to compose and arrange my own projects and outside. My projects include a jazz quartet/quintet, trombone quartet, trombone octet, jazz nonet “NeuNeuNonet,” and jazz orchestra. I still love to do masterclasses and clinics and to play the trombone as much as possible in many different and hopefully creative situations.

I’m never bored.

Examine an Ed Neumeister solo, transcription, and analysis here.

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Selected Discography (as leader, co-leader, trombonist, composer & arranger)

photo credit: Katharina Gossow

Explorations: Ed Neumeister Quartet, (MeisteroMusic Records) 2023

One of a Kind: Ed Neumeister Quartet (Leesta Vall Sound Recordings) 2023

Castles Made of Sound: Karl Ratzer & Ed Neumeister (PSI-Music),2023

What Have I Done?: Ed Neumeister Quartet (MeisteroMusic Records) 2021

Alone Together: Duo with guitarist Karl Ratzer (ENJA Records) 2021       

Wake Up Call: Ed Neumeister’s NeuHat Ensemble (MeisteroMusic Records) 2020

One And Only: Solo Trombone (MeisteroMusic Records) 2019

Suite Ellington: Ed Neumeister (Universal/Pao) 2016

Reflection: Ed Neumeister Quartet (ArtistShare) 2007         

New Standards: Ed Neumeister Quartet (MeisteroMusic Records) 2006

Collage: The New York Trombone Quartet Plays! (TNC Recordings) 2001

Here And There: JBBG Plays the Music of Ed Neumeister (Mons Recordings) 2001

Metro Music: Ed Neumeister Quintet (Timescraper Music) 1997

The Mohican And The Great Spirit: Ed Neumeister Trio (TCB Records) 1995

Equipment

Ed Neumeister plays an S.E. Shires 925 Sterling Silver Trombone with a 508 Slide and a Warburton/Oviedo 6T mouthpiece.

On the Web

Visit <www.edneumeister.com>; e-mail him at <meisteromusic@mac.com>.

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